Comments on Chez Chiara: Lingerie in Saudi and Social Activism

Sorry for not responding earlier. Well, probably m...

2010-02-05T17:13:57.506-05:00

Sorry for not responding earlier. Well, probably my mom since I'm single and it would be awkward to ask a male mehram.

As it is, I hate salemen who hover over me and try to "help" me. I prefer places where the staff minds their own business. If I need help, I'll ask.

Imran--Welcome, and thank you for your excellent c...

2010-02-02T10:37:48.424-05:00

Imran--Welcome, and thank you for your excellent comment. You certainly told that in dramatic style to match the discomfort of the situation as a man purchasing lingerie from women, as a parallel to women purchasing from a man.

You do raise good points about the challenges for the salesmen, despite their morals and professionalism, and in particular when they are in a segregated society without their wives. Tahar Ben Jelloun, the Moroccan novelist, wrote his doctoral thesis in social psychology on the challenges for North African immigrants, either single or away from their wives, and not able to socialize with Frenchwoman, and the psychological disturbances this led or contributed to. Anyone who reads French and is interested can access it through a university library system.

Thanks again for your comment, and I look forward to you commenting on older and newer posts.

"How big is she?", a question blanketing...

2010-02-01T07:29:23.156-05:00

"How big is she?", a question blanketing the bluntness in "how big are the twins", in decency, was the first question I faced with shaking knees on my first attempt to buy the first ever lingerie item. And then the salesgirl in the City Centre in Doha, seeing the state I was in on my face, tried to help out by pointing out the size of her colleague, and then her ownself. "Is she as big as Maha or then me?" Maha, I must point out, was loaded, while the one I was talking to could hide behind the t-shirt she was wearing. "Or then somewhere in the middle, sir". I chose the last option extended and realized how difficult it was for me to shop lingerie. Perhaps this was my first time which added to the saga. But then it must be very difficult for women, especially in KSA, who spend hours concealing themselves in black abayas, to actually go with their daughters/daughter-in-law or otherwise to complete strangers and asking for something that "fits". If I were the salesman there, I would seriously have my thoughts drifting to where they should not go. I am sure that the Bengali salesmen, most salesmen of lingeris shops here are Bengalis, living a life deprived of the fairsex in all its true form, it must be very difficuly to focus on the work.

No wonder the women feel the infringement on their privacy. I wonder why the reluctance on having female salespersons there. There are afterall, some malls boasting a female exclusive floor or enclosure.

Majed--Welcome, and thank you for your comprehensi...

2010-01-25T15:31:11.231-05:00

Majed--Welcome, and thank you for your comprehensive comment. You have captured well the problems with human nature everywhere, and the contradiction between assuming all persons must therefore be gender segregated, and allowing women to be in the company of male drivers and to make their most intimate purchases from male sales clerks. You make a good point that allowing men in these positions is to treat them as a different class of men, ie emasculated ones or eunuchs.

I do think this particular Ban is free from accusing the men of being problematic, and this Ban is more focused on the issue of increasing women's employment, and general desegregation. As a first step, it is proposing that women be the ones to sell lingerie, as did an official proposal which has been ignored, ie has never been enacted.

I am glad you support the ideas of choice, and desegregation of these workplace options, yet I understand that in such a situation as the current one you prefer to do the lingerie shopping for your wife.

Thanks again for your comment, and I hope you will comment on older and newer posts as well.

Dear all, It is mere hypocrisy, all that talk ab...

2010-01-24T04:48:35.424-05:00

Dear all,

It is mere hypocrisy, all that talk about ooof yaakh !!!!, males driving our ladies to their destinations regardless that some require that their drivers made to specific dimentions and complexions, and also about males selling stuff and even the most blushingly embarrassing intimate stuff too, our ladies are our counterparts, knowing that we are not saints hence, naturally our ladies are not angles, we are simply human beings and should not look forward to being more than that
even though i agree, that, like any other society not all that walk on two in respective socities are alike, but Saudi arabia is not like any other country or society this is sort of the formal view point and the believe of a vast majority of the natives who think they are the highest ranking in the moral scale.
well, I think those who have raised this issue are not living reality, or may be they are just trying to attract some attention since hypocrisy sells well.
have anyone ever tried to be Lingerie,cosmetics seller, taxi driver, private taxi driver, house driver or even simply a grocery shop round a corner keeper in saudi arabia, well I hope no one will ever give it a try, specially those who are high in the moral scale because the least I can say that they will be thunderstruck and will stop believing in morality, the ladies passengers and frequenters of those shops just treat those men like eunuchs i prefer not to say anything about how they behave.
It is a good idea that women should have the choice whether to buy their stuff from male seller or female seller, but it is wrong to use " BAN MEN FROM SELLING LINGERIE IN KSA" in insinuating that male sellers misuse or take advantage of their job to molest or to make improper advances to ladies ,they just grabbed the chance they got to make a decent living and it never happened that they have ever messed around with their livelihood so far as i know. As far as I am concerned I personally prefer to purchase my wife `s
( stuff ) myself.

Shafiq--My apologies for my misspelling of your na...

2010-01-23T10:46:23.778-05:00

Shafiq--My apologies for my misspelling of your name above. The Brits have invaded by Gallic orthography! And some would claim the 100 years war is over! LOL :)

Sandy--thanks for your comment and your suggestion...

2010-01-23T06:07:07.517-05:00

Sandy--thanks for your comment and your suggestions on how to boycott. True the skin tone differences would take some mastering and are hilarious in the meantime.

Shafeeq--yes I believe Saudi Jeans did a post shortly after Reem Assad created her Facebook activist group. I do see this as a doable small step that could have a larger symbolic impact.

There are convincing studies showing that the countries which only operate with 50% of their brains in the workplace do less well than the others. Hopefully they all, including Saudi will see the value of having the input of 100% of the population. Provision of pre-uni education in these countries is usually very good to both genders. That is a first step, but only a first.

I also remember the other post of Saudi Jeans on the graphic designer. Self-employment via the internet is one viable option for women with few work opportunities.

Thanks for both your comments.

Oh, and to add to Nabeel's post - what is with...

2010-01-21T17:02:24.745-05:00

Oh, and to add to Nabeel's post - what is with women not being allowed to work in most places?

I mean, how idiotic can you get to stop half your population from working, even though allowing them to work would contribute so much to the economy? And you can't even use religion seeing as the Prophet's (SAW) first wife was a businesswoman who, by historical accounts, earned more than her husband.

Again on SaudiJeans' blog, there was a post about an extremely talented young woman who studied graphic design, but was unable to get a job. She now designs T-Shirts and sells them online.

I came across this a couple of months ago at Saudi...

2010-01-21T16:55:09.167-05:00

I came across this a couple of months ago at SaudiJeans - Good on them!

It is very odd and creepy for men to staff lingerie stores (as most people have mentioned). Plus the obvious ironies when it takes place in a society with such a strict separation of the sexes.

Small steps, I say! Who knows? Maybe one day, Saudi women may also be able to drive?! I know, can you believe it? Revolutionary.

Well, since I travel out every year- I hit the lin...

2010-01-21T14:29:18.460-05:00

Well, since I travel out every year- I hit the lingerie shops when I'm outside the kingdom. It creeps me out even in the US when there are men wandering in a lingerie shop- so I can't handle the Saudi situation. I understand Victoria's Secret mail order does quite well- I've done that on occasion as well.

Once I needed nail polish and I was at one of the big make-up stores and the men were so helpful trying on all the colors I was interested in. It was hilarious. Of course, they had a completely different skin tone than I do- so it really couln't help me decide- but they were very eager to help!!

Other make up options are Avon.

ISW--Merci et je m'excuse. The tone of my comm...

2010-01-21T11:55:56.649-05:00

ISW--Merci et je m'excuse. The tone of my comment was unintentionally "sec". Sorry about that.

I agree with everything you said here, and it must be nice to have a sister who designs lingerie! Mine designs jewelery but she has that on hold at the moment.

Chiara, je comprend et c'est vrai, c'est u...

2010-01-21T09:59:41.198-05:00

Chiara, je comprend et c'est vrai, c'est un grand probleme.. My sister is a lingerie designer and she had private showings and sales once every month.

I am sure this is something many women in closed societies do, but I wonder how far they could take it. It is more pleasing anyway for women to fit and support other women.

NidalM--yes it is true that this must be uncomfort...

2010-01-21T06:59:03.399-05:00

NidalM--yes it is true that this must be uncomfortable on both sides, and I assume that most of the men doing this job are normal and in need of work/ good employer evaluations/ commissions rather than creeps.

Trying on lingerie is dicey in the best of circumstances, since the women salesclerks have a tendency to burst in to see "How you are doing" and to grab the front mid piece to shake you in to place. Very unsettling until I learned how to dodge that manoeuvre. Also one of the better boutiques I am aware of locally has a staff with a kind of Yiddish American approach to shouting advice and size recommendations throughout the other wise upscale specialty shop.

When I think of the fuss the hub made over the way one shoe salesman was testing my foot for fit, and making suggestions about clips to add interest to the plain black high heels, the thought of the lingerie salesmen does start to boggle the mind more.

Nabeel--Welcome and thank you for your kind words,...

2010-01-21T06:47:32.155-05:00

Nabeel--Welcome and thank you for your kind words, and comment. You have a very interesting blog as well. I wish you luck in your activist endeavours. Puça of Sic Itur Ad Astra (see side bar for blog link) is a regular commentator here, and a Catalunyan Barça fan.

Interesting suggestion about boxing the lingerie as a way to minimize the discomfort for the women and the male salesclerks. My understanding is that most lingerie shops in Saudi are boutiques, often within malls, rather than department store counters. Hopefully someone in Saudi will enlighten us. It would be one good way to increase employment for women by creating niche employment sectors like those catering to women (and the men who love them): lingerie shops, jewellery, makeup, accessories, maternity wear, abayas, women's clothing. This would be easiest to do in the boutiques but could be done in the relevent sections of a department store with a cash area in each section.

Your story of the 80 year old with the Kotex and the lingerie made me laugh. Maybe a helpful grandpa? It reminded me of my rather prudish aunt being surprised that my father added feminine hygiene products in 3 types (for mother, sister, and I) to his grocery list and routinely went through the checkout with said items. He took over all grocery and much other shopping while my mother was teaching fulltime and going to uni part-time.

He had less problem with this than going through the check out with my mother after a car accident which left her with a very fat, and very black and blue upper lip. The dirty looks he got from cashiers and patrons assuming he had hit her made them stop shopping together until her lip was back to normal.

Thanks for your comment, and I look forward to your comments on older and newer posts!

Oby--thanks for your comment. Yes the niqab might ...

2010-01-21T06:33:08.419-05:00

Oby--thanks for your comment. Yes the niqab might come in handy here. I have vague memories of a male lingerie salesmen but our interaction was non-creepy and he was helpful re: colours and styles without "checking me out" just responding to a query about a certain style in my size, and finding many more options than were on display, but were in his display drawers embedded in the counter. Of course, I had the option of not talking to him at all.

Ann Marie--Welcome, and thank you for your support and suggestions. I will have to check Reem Assad's facebook site and see whether she has all of these and if not leave a message. You have also inspired me to do a follow-up after the 2 weeks are up. It will be interesting to see the impact. I would imagine for the stay at homes with access to the internet that the Facebook site is one way of becoming aware. Students in high school, college, and uni, can share the information with family and friends which is a good starting point as you mentioned. Thank you again for your comment, and I hope you will comment on new and older posts as well.

I've heard countless stories about how awkward...

2010-01-21T04:22:27.356-05:00

I've heard countless stories about how awkward this is. A friend wold me of one of her own experiences, where she walked into a well known lingerie chain here in Saudi.

Not being able to find the size she needed, she walked upto one of the male salesmen and asked for a particular style. The man gives stares at her discerningly and replies, "No ma'am, I think for you this one will look nicer". I shuddered when I heard this exchange, I cant imagine how bad it would've been there for her.

Most women, I'd imagine, wouldn't dare try the fit of something before they buy it in such circumstances, even if there are appropriately private fitting rooms.

It should also be noted that its definitely not easy for the salesmen either. If they dont make suggestions, theyre bad at their jobs. If they do, they are creeps.

Excellent post,one that will unfortunately (for me...

2010-01-21T01:17:33.542-05:00

Excellent post,one that will unfortunately (for me) force me to go through the rest of your blog for quality blogging.

I work part time at Wal Mart and even after three months,it's still kind of weird to scan lingerie and bag it for customers...but it's not so weird (in fact almost negligible) when the same items are packaged in a cardboard box. that's another possible solution for saudi arabia.

having women work is great,and i completely back that,but to have a lady working somewhere like Giant Stores, ONLY because of a certain group of items (we can add pads,jewelry,and cosmetics too),might be unfeasible...i mean it'll be difficult to implement on the large scale. but yes it should be legalized and perhaps if a few shops can do it successfully,or if it can be implemented in one city,it should spread to the rest.

but i think all of this would be so much easier if the lingerie were simply packed in boxes with sizes written on them.women should know their sizes - if they don't,then after the first time they buy anything,they will.

weirdest of all - having 80 year old men walk up to the counter carrying Kotex in one hand and an open bra in the other.

i mean,uncle,wtf?

Although I am not in Saudi Arabia I will definitel...

2010-01-20T23:46:31.365-05:00

Although I am not in Saudi Arabia I will definitely be following to see how effective this boycott is, but how are you going to get everyone on board for this? I can imagine that women in colleges will be able to take part as you can make them aware of the boycott, but what about the stay at home mothers etc.? What's the plan for than? It would be fantastic to see a feminist movement take flight in Saudi. I will be watching this story with interest!!! Is it possible you could get some womens magazine involved as well?

I agree with coolred...It would feel so uncomforta...

2010-01-20T20:32:37.624-05:00

I agree with coolred...It would feel so uncomfortable buying lingerie from a man...the only saving grace would be on those days I could wear a niqab and they would have no idea who I am. Besides, how if it is haram to talk to a strange man is it NOT haram to buy undies from them??? Weird!

Single4now--interesting observation. A female some...

2010-01-20T19:27:49.359-05:00

Single4now--interesting observation. A female someone else or a mahrem?
It is a good idea to start with something relatively simple but meaningful and persist, as valuable in itself and symbolic of other changes. I would imagine it would be easy enough for the women in the EP to do all their purchases in Bahrain as a further form of protest.

That's really sad. Saudi govt needs to wake up...

2010-01-20T15:30:55.454-05:00

That's really sad. Saudi govt needs to wake up and make appropriate changes in certain ways things work in Saudi. I would feel very odd buying undergarments from men. I'd probably have someone else get it for me. I'm glad women are standing up against this.

Imperfect Stepford Wife--I agree that these aspect...

2010-01-19T23:44:02.874-05:00

Imperfect Stepford Wife--I agree that these aspects of Saudi life make little sense. I do see this particular issue as being beyond lingerie though, since one of the initiatives to increase employment for women was legislation to eliminate this phenomenon and replace the men with Saudi women. It has been stifled, and so another opportunity to make inroads into employment for women is lost. In that sense I do think that deliberately taking safe protest stands is warranted.

I suggested some others in the post, and Susie has suggested in a comment on Eman's blog that she will deliberately go into shops, ask to be served by a woman, and when the inevitable happens to walk out without a purchase, in order to bring home the point.

Another action I thought of would be to sell lingerie at home sales parties, and that some women would have a job out of doing this. I am not sure how well it would work in Saudi but perhaps some of those who live there could give their impression of how well it would work.

However, only a persistent and cohesive campaign to boycott lingerie shops with salesmen would be effective. The Facebook campaign organized by Reem Assad is a powerful start. I wonder who else will join in a major way and what tactics they will propose. Finding systematic alternatives to these shops would be important as would the backing of a broader group.

Thanks for your comment.

I hope others will chime in as well.

Qusay--I read your pain! Happily in lejaby lingeri...

2010-01-19T23:31:34.742-05:00

Qusay--I read your pain! Happily in lejaby lingerie land and then wham! grannie panties! Ah but think of the poor grannies who must purchase said panties from non-mahrem men! Not to mention the women living in Saudi for whom the final picture is blocked--the one of the man who appreciates lejaby lingerie. Hence the second link. To think I almost included this fellow's confrere who prefers his lejaby lingerie white! Too much suffering for Saudi residents--best that I didn't!

You are welcome for the support, and congratulations on extending yours in a post.

Omani--Welcome, and thank you for pointing out the...

2010-01-19T23:26:53.524-05:00

Omani--Welcome, and thank you for pointing out the distinction between Saudi and other GCC countries. I think it is very important to contextualize Saudi culture and society in relation to its neighbours to better understand the commonalities and differences, and then the reasons for them, including as a prelude to modifications. I hope you will comment on older and newer posts as well.

Umm Abdullah--thank you for sharing your experienc...

2010-01-19T23:20:40.156-05:00

Umm Abdullah--thank you for sharing your experience of this. It must feel extra strange to have arrived in Saudi relatively recently and from the US, where salesmen for these items is an uncommon practice. It didn't strike me before your mentioning it that men would be selling abayas too. Of all the complaints I have read about the abayas that one hasn't come up yet. Certainly from a North American perspective a heterosexual man selling makeup is odd, but not unheard of. Your comment combined with the others made me realize that probably in KSA men selling lingerie becomes even more strange--not so much because of the disconnect with the segregation practice, but because of the hyper focus on potential sexual improprieties in general. In that context the whole interaction would just be more fraught. Or a case of de-sexualizing the salesperson completely, and getting back into racist territory because of the exceptions to segregation--a vicious circle.
Thanks for your comment and I hope you will continue to comment on newer and older posts.